I realize now – that as a Protestant — I misquoted the Bible when challenging Catholics about Purgatory. Catholics taught that there was a “transition” between earth and heaven—a place or state of final purification called Purgatory.
“But how can there be a Purgatory?” I asked. “Doesn’t St. Paul teach that ‘to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord’? Since ‘absence from the body’ means that we are immediately in ‘the presence of the Lord,’ there can’t be anything called Purgatory. Catholics deny the clear teaching of the Bible!”
Whoa! Slow down! Is this really what the Bible says?
First, that is a misreading of the Bible—a twisting of Scripture to score a point. The Bible does NOT say “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Rather it says,
“So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:6-8).
This is very different from my old argument. Paul would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord, but certainly doesn’t say it the way I twisted it in my old anti-Catholic days.
If I want to be away from Michigan in the winter I might say “In the winter we would rather be away from Michigan and present in Arizona.” It does NOT say that to be away from Michigan that I am instantly or automatically in Arizona. My in-laws go between Arizona and Michigan twice a year and they stop a lot along the way. It usually takes them 3-4 weeks to get from one to the other as the visit and camp along the way.
We understand that this language leaves room for a transition period—especially in an automobile or plane with a possible motel or visit along the way. Paul’s words also leave room for such a transition; it does not exclude Purgatory.
Second, Paul teaches that we will pass through fire. Notice what he says in 1 Corinthians 3:15: On “the Day” if “any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:15, RSVCE). Sounds like Purgatory to me.
Third, Purgatory is not “away from the Lord” strictly speaking. Those in Purgatory—whether it is a place or a state of transition—are not apart from the Lord. In fact, it is the love of God that is purifying them. I have always said that Purgatory is like the front porch of heaven. Those who are in Purgatory know they have arrived! But you can read more about that in my article on Purgatory here.
So, don’t let someone trick you with the old “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” argument. It is fallacious and deceptive. Again, the Catholic Church is correct.
(Piccture: Purgatory is a place of mercy; it is a place of joy for having arrived.)
{ 9 comments… read them below or add one }
The “Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” argument would also imply that Hell (a place of which Jesus often talked) does not exist.
Maybe that’s why it doesn’t get used much.
The “Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” argument would also imply that Hell (a place of which Jesus often talked) does not exist.
Why would Jesus talk about a place that doesn’t exist? The quote you are talking about only applies to Christians. Hell is the final destination for all non-believers.
You, JohnD, apparently don’t believe what Jesus said. You need to read the New Testament more to see that mostly what Jesus talked about was the Kingdom of God, not hell.
Hi Steve,
As Christians, when we die, our physical body dies, but our spirit goes to be with Jesus. Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” There’s no waiting. Unfortunately, when non-Christians die, they go to hell. There is no in-between, for if a person doesn’t receive Jesus while he is alive, then neither will they receive Him after death. Remember what Abraham said to the rich man in hell, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.” (Luke 16:31) That rich man went into hell and torment, not purgatory. (Luke 16:22-23) At the last trumpet, is when we will be given an immortal body, when our spirit, who has been with Jesus, will unite with our given immortal body. (1 Cor. 15:52) –”the truth is still the truth, even if a billion people votes 1+1=3.”
STEVE RAY HERE: SEEMS YOU ARE READING THE BIBLE RATHER SELECTIVELY TUAN AND MISSING SOME IMPORTANT DATA. I WILL ALLOW YOUR POST BUT WITH RESERVATION SINCE THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY THAN YOU ARE PRESENTING.
Praise be Jesus Christ and Blessed be His Holy Mother for all generations!
Hi Bro. Steve,
In the King James version it is quoted “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” Which interpretaion is correct?
Thanks, and may Yeshua continue to bless you and your ministry!
-James Rosa
“Why would Jesus talk about a place that doesn’t exist?” He didn’t, nor did JohnD imply a disbelief in hell. He was criticizing the “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord argument.
“The quote you are talking about applies only to Christians.” “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” is not a quote from the Bible; it is a misquote of 2Cor. 5:8.
“You, JohnD, apparently don’t believe what Jesus said.” JohnD never said he doesn’t believe in hell. Nor did he say that he didn’t believe what Jesus said.
Since there are no punctuation marks in ancient languages, our Lord’s words to the Good Thief can also be translated: \Assuredly, I say to you today: you will be with me in Paradise.\
\Unfortunately, when non-Christians die, they go to hell.\ If that is so, then, at the Last Judgment, when some of the just ask Jesus: \Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, etc.\, and He replies: \Whenever you did this for the least of my brothers, you did it for me\, to whom will he be speaking? We Christians already know that what we do for others, we do for Jesus. He must be talking about those \other sheep, that are not of (His) fold\.
Hi Steve –
Good points, but the most important to me was simply this: the idea of “imputed righteousness,” which is the foundation by which Protestants think they are made righteous and therefore have the right to instant access to Heaven, is as false as the day is long. It comes from making a word in English say exactly the opposite of what it means in Greek. This sort of very loose handling of the Bible, especially by pastors who are supposed to know Greek and some who even brag of it, is what makes my have a rather strong distaste for these people. If that lacks charity, so be it. When you read what the Early Fathers had to say about heretics (which was NOT all that nice) I may be in good company, even if I couldn’t carry St. John Chrysostom’s sandals.
The idea of forensic justification is that because we are “totally depraved” we have no innate ability to have righteousness in and of ourselves, even if we are doing good deeds. Therefore, when God saw Abraham exercise faith in Him, God said “Awwwww, poor little feller. Trusts in me, he does. I like that, so since he is totally depraved, I’ll give him a whopping big dose of my Son’s righteousness and then I’ll clear the “GUILTY” sign off his ledger and replace it with the legal designation “NOT GUILTY”. That way he can come right to Heaven”
Nice tale. False. Totally bogus.
The Greek word “loziomai”, which is translated as “imputed” means “to count”. It is an accounting term. It means you count what is really there. When God counted (logizomai) Abraham as righteous, He was able to do so because Abraham was really righteous. Romans has a verse that says that faith IS righteousness.
In other words, God deals with each of us JUST AS WE ARE!!!
Which means that if I have not worked on cleansing my soul, on becoming like Christ in divinization, in eschewing sin and forming habits of righteousness here on earth — well, when I die, God is going to deal with me just as I am. I do not get to hide under the snow white blanket of Christ’s righteousness.
And thus — purging after death.
And for some of us more stubborn sinners such as I, with those hard to get rid of sins that dog us constantly, I see Purgatory as a great mercy from God.
Thank yew, Jazuz (Can I git an Aaaaa men brethren?)
Brother Ed:
Amen !!! As Mother Teresea said \My goal is to get to purgatory\.
Great post! Purgatory is logical, there are so many of us who are not doing evil, but not doing Gods complete will either, there has to be a place of purification. The bible consistently speaks of cleansing and purification in a multitude of situations. If someone comes to your house with mud on their shoes do you let them in, or require that they take off their shoes and enter only with clean feet? Only with God we must have a clean soul. (no pun intended)
You can’t enter Gods house with mud on your shoes, or sin on your soul!
Thanks for the info I will be here again..