Nathaniel has Converted 5 Catholics out of the Church

by Steve Ray on August 8, 2013

Nathaniel wrote: 

Thanks for the 6-tips which i see is taken from your baptist upbringing. I will use it to win Catholics to Christ and out from the RC Church. It will add to the list of 5 Catholics I’ve already sucessfully evangelized them out of the RC Church. Keep the tips coming :)

I responded:

My wife Janet and I after our reception into the Church with our sponsors Al and Sally Kresta (also converts)

Nathaniel: You’ve a long way to go my friend if you view this as a race – I’ve helped over 4,000 Protestants discover the fullness of faith in the Catholic Church. 

And if you consider the statistics you come up short again. The number of converts to the Catholic Church that revert back is about 1%; whereas, the number of people who leave Catholicism for a Baptist-type tradition, about 50% will eventually return to the Catholic Church.

And while the traffic continues back and forth between Catholicism and Fundamentalism, some observers have suggested that whereas a two decades ago more Catholics were leaving to become Fundamentalists, it has now reversed and there are more Fundamentalists becoming Catholics than the other way around.

Dr. Francis Beckwith

Another thing you may have missed: there are no notable Catholics becoming Protestants but there are many notable Protestants becoming Catholics (e.g., Dr. Francis Beckwith, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society).

This is confirmed by Protestant writer Kim Riddlebarger, “While evangelicalism is growing numerically, apparently there are not as many notable Roman Catholics becoming evangelicals as vice-versa” (Roman Catholicism, ed. John Armstrong [Chicago: Moody Press, 1994], 240). 

In other words, the converts to the Catholic Church (and there are untold thousands, just watch Marcus Grodi’s The Journey Home  on EWTN) are among the best and brightest that Evangelicalism has to offer, whereas those you are converting out of the Catholic Church tend to be the most biblically illiterate and uneducated. 

You’re on the wrong and losing side my friend. I would encourage you to read more carefully, study Scripture more deeply, pray more seriously, take your head out of the sand and join the throng of joyful converts into the Catholic Church. You can read more about this Nathaniel here and thanks for writing.

{ 66 comments… read them below or add one }

Greg Hogan August 9, 2013 at 4:15 PM

The range war between Roman Catholics and every other expression of Christianity has been going on, yea, these centuries. Intramural belt notches are fine if that is what lights your candle. Everyone’s got their niche. I prefer hitting the trail and watching God bless hearts and minds that have up to now, rejected Christ because they just never got it. Muslims are the best. When they become aware that the Holy Spirit is introducing himself to them for the first time … It brings tears and joy. Like Jesus at the well. It is the greatest satisfaction.

Bill 912 August 10, 2013 at 3:20 PM

Nathaniel: One’s motivation for trying to convert others should be love; your comment gives evidence that your motivation is hatred.

Nathaniel Fernandes August 11, 2013 at 6:38 AM

Bill 912:
Yes… my motivation is love for the truth, no one evangelizes using hatred. Your reasoning is far fetched and it certainly points to your upbringing since majority of catholics are from generations in-doctrinated against anything that does not originate from catholic sources, Just like the Jehovah’s witnesses culr relgion indoctrinate their followers.

Bill 912 August 11, 2013 at 12:37 PM

Nathaniel, your hatred just came through loud and clear again.

Nathaniel Fernandes August 11, 2013 at 2:14 PM

Bill 92: No point in talking further. It surely implies that Steve had the same motives of hatred since he used the same tips while he was a baptist. Only now is he is catholic, so you look the other way round. So it confirms your indoctrination.

De Maria August 12, 2013 at 1:07 AM

Nathaniel Fernandes August 11, 2013 at 6:38 AM
Bill 912:
Yes… my motivation is love for the truth,

Not so. If your motivation were love for the Truth, you would come to the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15), the Catholic Church.

no one evangelizes using hatred.

That is also not true. There are many anti-Catholics using hateful tactics against the Church which Jesus Christ built.

Your reasoning is far fetched

I’ve just proved your premise for this conclusion to be false. Therefore, logically, this conclusion must be false as well. In fact, it is your reasoning which is far fetched.

and it certainly points to your upbringing since majority of catholics are from generations in-doctrinated against anything that does not originate from catholic sources,

You are mistaken again. Protestants object to Catholic Teaching because we incorporate the philosophical systems of Plato and Socrates and many other great non-Christian philosophers. And because Catholic Teaching also incorporates the legal system developed in ancient Rome. But you claim exactly the reverse.

The fact is that Protestants don’t understand therefore acquire a fear of Catholic Teaching. Then they respond as you are doing, lashing out blindly at the Truth which Jesus Christ deposited in the Catholic Church.

Just like the Jehovah’s witnesses culr relgion indoctrinate their followers.

Jehovah witnesses are Protestants like you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Leo Kuku August 12, 2013 at 10:31 AM

Count me out Nathaniel

Instead of evangelizing atheists and other non Christians, Nathaniel prefers preaching to Catholics who already profess Christ. One would have thought that the former would be the priority of a zealous soldier. He saw my comment on this blog some time ago and tried me out but it was a monumental failure. He has several unanswered questions to deal with from me that I wonder how he finds time to be on this blog! The fact that he has not converted to the CC is simply because he considers himself infallible, and not because of the Gospel. After chatting with him, I discovered he actually hates what others told him about the CC, and not what he himself discovered by research, and he is too proud to learn. Remember, God will not forgive you if you mislead uninformed people out of his church.

Leo

Nathaniel Fernandes August 15, 2013 at 6:36 AM

Hi all .. a couple of comments from scripture. Go search
- You will die in you sins, Jesus said, if you do not know who is he (John 8:24). In other words Jesus told the Pharisees that they will die in their sins if they cling to their “traditions”. Does the cap fit your church?
- You are “spiritually” dead in sins and trespasses. Are you?

In reply to De Maria’s comments:
- That is also not true. There are many anti-Catholics using hateful tactics against the Church which Jesus Christ built. You are mistaken again. Protestants object to Catholic Teaching because we incorporate the philosophical systems of Plato and Socrates and many other great non-Christian philosophers. And because Catholic Teaching also incorporates the legal system developed in ancient Rome.

As you have rightly admitted about the incorporation of philosophical systems of Plato and Socrates and legal system developed in ancient Rome … be aware that the New Testament Church that Jesus Christ established first at Jerusalem by the Apostles on the day of Pentecost did *not* practice “religious syncretism”. A church that preaches religious syncretism is not the Church of Jesus Christ but a false Christ. In a church that preaches religious syncretism, the preeminence of Christ is “lost”. Read the Epistle to the Colossians that St.Paul wrote , because he had to deal with such an issue that cropped up. In that epistle Paul tells the believers at the Church at Colosse that Christ is all sufficient since they “meandered” away from Jesus Christ – the only true living God. Now the onus is on you to prove that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and he also introduced other philosophical systems.

Nathaniel Fernandes August 15, 2013 at 7:00 AM

De Maria:
Jehovah witnesses are Protestants like you

Do you know that JW’s incorporated works of Roman Catholic Jesuit scholars when they compiled their corrupted NWT Bible? So there is a “common” ground both camps share. So your statement: Jehovah witnesses are Protestants like me, hold no “water”.

From the inside cover of the JW NWT Bible:

The Greek text that we have used as the basis of our New World translation is the widely accepted Westcott and Hort text (1881), by reason of its admitted excellence. But we have also taken into consideration other texts, including that prepared by D. Eberhard Nestle and that compiled by the Spanish Jesuit scholar Jose Maria Bover and that by the other Jesuit scholar A. Merk. Where we have varied from the reading of the Westcott and Hort text, our footnotes show the basis for our preferred reading.

Bill912 August 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM

Leo was just proven right.

Loren T. August 16, 2013 at 11:42 PM

As I read the comments including those of Nathaniel, his words resembled my radical Protestant friend so much. I was sad for days of not understanding why he would pray for me to have peace, but he used words such as “hatred, persecution” from me as a member of the Catholic Church. Another confusing part is that they are so willing to pray for the conversion of Catholics, but I would suggest that they stop doing that if they refuse to acknowledge the heavenly family: the Blessed Mother of God and all the Saints and Angels. Wow, what radical pride to ignore those that are in heaven already. Even the Son of God humbled Himself to become man to teach us Humility. The Word of God which is Christ Himself supposed to teach us that. Sign”…

Julie August 20, 2013 at 1:45 AM

If Nathaniel had Jesus in his heart, he would not be so hateful. He is brimming with hatred for Catholics. Because they believe differently than he does, it all goes back to narcisissm, not Jesus. We love you my friend, Nathaniel, because Jesus loves you. Keep investigating the claims of the Catholic Church. I did, and it brought me back to His church, and the great joy of encountering Him every Sunday in the Catholic Mass. I don’t expect you to listen, pride is going to stand in the way. That is one of the tools Satan uses to keep people away from Jesus in the Eucharist.

Nathaniel Fernandes August 21, 2013 at 8:20 AM

The scriptures may hurt us with the “truth” but it will never comfort us with a “lie”.

STEVE RAY HERE. Nathaniel, no doubt. But the lie of Protest-ism falsely comforts and definitely hurts not only the individual, but the body of Christ as a whole by causing schism.

Julie August 22, 2013 at 2:00 AM

Nathaniel, You are correct. The scriptures may hurt us with the truth. Actually, they comfort me because they do hold the truth, and that is one reason I am Catholic. The Catholic church is the only one now that sticks like glue to the scriptures, even if what Jesus says is “uncomfortable.” Look at how many protestant churches have rejected the eucharist, because they find it uncomfortable, just as some disciples found Jesus’ words uncomfortable and walked away. I had a healing encounter with Jesus, and I feel His presence when I am at Mass. I know he’s there, and it is so comforting and joyful, I cry when I am there.

Nathaniel Fernandes nathanielferns@hotmail.com August 23, 2013 at 5:16 AM

Julie, I see you are a sincere person who loves God. But we must understand sincerity does not translate into the truth. We can definitely be sincerely wrong.

A new item you may want to read: Former Pope Benedict XVI said God told him to resign his pontificate. The former pope Benedict has claimed that his resignation in February was prompted by God, who told him to do it during a “mystical experience”. Benedict’s reported remarks contrast with the explanation he gave to cardinals when he announced his resignation on 11 February. “My strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry,” he said then. (Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/21/pope-benedict-god-resign-mystical-experience).

In the past several years, I have noticed that a lot of the reason why people somewhat follow the Church of Rome is because of ‘mystical experiences,’ apparitions, eucharistic ‘miracles,’ and other signs and wonders – (2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Julie August 23, 2013 at 8:59 AM

Of course we believe in miracles. I especially. I have heard people talk about whether Jesus is real. I want to yell, I know! I know! He IS real. I had a healing encounter with Him. Right after I prayed for Him to remove the pain, and save my life, I felt the pain lift up and out of the top of my head. It was real. And it never came back. I am being deliberately vague because I don’t want to tell the whole story. But the healing was real. So, I needed to find Him after that and keep Him in my life. He is present at the Catholic Mass! Right when the priest says the prayer over the host, I feel He is there, even if I am not quite paying attention. I cry involuntarily and I can’t describe the joy that I feel. I have been in protestant churches since the healing and saving, and I didn’t feel Him there. Not that He is NOT there, I just did not feel that I encountered Him there. AND, I wanted to be sure that if He, the Jesus that I love with my whole being, founded a church, I wanted to be in THAT church. I read writings by the early Christians, Early Church Fathers. That left no doubt that the church was (surprisingly) very Catholic in practice and belief right after the resurrection. It seems so strange, but there it was. And then the church gave us the Bible, I discovered. THANK YOU JESUS for this wonderful church, and for staying with us and being with us through that church, and for coming right to me after I prayed for you to help me. God bless, Nathaniel. I rarely share my story. People tend to think you are crazy when you talk about stuff like that.

Julie August 23, 2013 at 9:12 AM

BTW, I eventually shared my story with my daughter, who said she was having trouble believing in Jesus, the resurrection, etc. She asked me, Why would He save you when He lets so many other people die? I don’t have an answer for that. I don’t know. I can only tell you what happened to me. Also, one other thing about that. I was a heavy drinker before the healing incident. Interestingly, that is gone now. And, I noticed, encountering the eucharist really does change you. As I imagine it is supposed to. An encounter with the Holy Spirit inside and out, so to speak, in a way that we humans can grasp. I crave Jesus just as you do, Nathaniel. I think Jesus knew that we would.

Nathaniel Fernandes August 23, 2013 at 1:45 PM

The early church fathers did not practice Eucharistic adoration as practiced currently in the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox deny it outside the liturgy, the later Melanchthon Lutherans rejected the idea, yet they all believe in real presence. I need to ask why ONLY the Roman Catholics, with some Anglo-Catholics, maintain this practice. Could it be that other conservative, Bible-believing, Tradition-holding groups believe that eucharistic adoration is in error? Evangelicals have concerns that when you limit the “physical presence” of Jesus to a physical object, you have created by definition an idol.

Did early Christians use a round eucharistic host? A careful comparison of what is taught in the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church along with eucharistic practices should make this clear to any truly interested in the truth – see 1 Corinthians 11:1 and Notice what Jesus said in 1 John 2:6.

Article 3, under the Seven Sacraments of the Church in the Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses the eucharist. Section II asks and answers the question, What is this Sacrament Called? Several names are listed, including “The Breaking of Bread” (#1329). It also states the following:

1339 Jesus choose the time of the Passover…And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them…(Catechism of the Catholic Church. Imprimatur Potest +Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Doubleday, NY 1995, p. 373)

Now the above is scriptural. Here are some related scriptures – Matthew 26:19,26, Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19). Notice, it is very clear that Jesus BROKE the bread on Passover (Pasch means Passover). The Apostle Paul confirmed that it was the practice of the early Christians to break bread – (See 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:23-24).

The Apostle Paul followed Jesus’ practice and broke bread. Furthermore, notice what The Catholic Encyclopedia teaches in its article “Host”: …the first Christians…simply used the bread that served as food. It seems that the form differed but little from what it is in our day. The loaves discovered in an oven of a bakery at Pompeii weighed about a pound each. One of these, being perfectly preserved, measured about seven inches in diameter and was creased with seven ridges which facilitated the breaking of the loaf without the aid of a knife. (Leclercq, Henri. “Host.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 7. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910. 28 Feb. 2011 ). Notice the article basically says that the practice of the first Christians, which is consistent with the Bible, was to use normal loaves of bread that resemble what is still in use today. And that it was broken. (The article never says where the round host actually came from). Thus, to have a Passover/eucharistic ceremony where they bread is not broken is certainly not imitating Jesus, the Apostle Paul, nor the early Christians. It is a change that the Church of Rome must have gotten outside of the Bible.

Yet, in the eucharistic ceremonies in the Catholic Church, the bread is not broken. Instead, it is a round host that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says can/should be worshipped and adored (CCC #1378, p. 385). Yet, there is no indication that the early Christians or the apostles did anything like that. They basically taught that it was to be eaten.

Worshipers of sun-gods worshiped round symbols. Early Christians did not. See what God says in Deutronomy 17:3. Ezekiel 8:16 says – ” And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD’S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. What conclusion can we form if we take a look at this picture: http://anglicanuseliturgy.webs.com/20081028_plb_monstrance_7w.jpg OR THIS http://www.todayscatholicnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/MonstranceAlone-156×253.jpg

Julie, I see that you ofter use the word “feel”. Its the normal parlance used by Charismatics and evangelical Pentecostals, both camps share same beliefs of “feelings” and “experience”. Human feelings are deceptive and you are simply choked up/overwhelmed byhuman emotions. From your comments I can discern, you are confused, you do not truly know who the “Real Jesus Christ” is and what was his purpose to come to earth 2000 years ago to die on a roman cross. The Jesus that you perceive is “Jesus – the healer”. Certainly Jesus healed the sick when he was on the earth, but he did it only to authenticate his Messiahship.

You said – “BTW, I eventually shared my story with my daughter, who said she was having trouble believing in Jesus, the resurrection, etc. She asked me, Why would He save you when He lets so many other people die? I don’t have an answer for that. I don’t know.” You truly do not know the real Jesus. See what Jesus said in John 8:24 – “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins”.

Remember feelings or human emotions are deceptive, that is why Proverbs 3:5 says “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding”.

John Chagas August 24, 2013 at 2:13 PM

Religion wants to fit us with glasses like the one’s Steve mentioned in respect when Catholics use Catholic glasses whereas Protestants us Protestant glasses; But the Lord wants to open our eyes. Religion, if it shows us the Word at all, shows it to us through a filter of tradition. The Lord wants us to be free to preach and believe the Word as it is.

Julie August 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM

Nathaniel, You want to think that I am being deceived because I am Catholic. You are wrong. But thank you for your concern. :)

Julie August 24, 2013 at 7:02 PM

I suppose then that you don’t feel the presence of Christ. That’s too bad. God bless.

onerock August 26, 2013 at 10:09 AM

Hey Nathaniel,

Thank you for the reminder about Proverbs 3:5 which says “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding”.

Just a question for you:
How do you know YOUR interpretation of Scripture does not “lean unto thine own understanding” of Scripture? Can you explain?

Do you see why Scripture itself in 1 Tim 3:15 points Christians to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth which is the Church?

How about Ephesians 3:10~11? (His intent was that now, THROUGH THE CHURCH, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.)

And how about Matthew 18:17? (If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.)

So Nathaniel, how do you know YOU ARE NOT LEANING UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING when it comes to your interpretation of Scripture?

PoorKnight August 26, 2013 at 11:30 AM

Dear Nathaniel,

I also have some friendly questions for you:

Do you think the exchange of wedding rings is ok to do?

Do you think ‘giving away the bride’ is an ok practice?

What do you call each day of the week?

Do you think we should display the cross in our churches?

Did the Hebrews sin by having a tabernacle and bringing it around with them?

What do all these things have in common? They all have pagen origions. You life is full of pagen practices and origions. The difference is whether or not you attach the pagen meaning or some other meaning.

And a few more to the point: Was Martin Luther an idolator for believing in a style of True Presense in the Eucharist as well? How about for his belief in the Sinlessness of Mary, the Perpertula Virginity of Mary, and her Immaculate Conception? Was he right to want to eliminate the books of Hebrews, Jude, 2nd and 3rd John, 2nd Peter, James and Revelation?

Then why do you follow his errant belief of Sola Scriptura, private interpretation – which is condemned in Scirpture (2 pet 1:20) – Sola Fide – which is also condemned in Scripture (James 2:24) and rejection of Church Authority?

You have built your house upon the shifting sand. You need to build your house on the Rock, which is Peter who is Divinely attached to the Rock of Christ.

alice August 26, 2013 at 2:51 PM

I love how those who believe based on Sola Scriptura, and lecture Catholics on the Bible, but fail to recognize that the Bible came from the RCC, through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Nathaniel Fernandes August 27, 2013 at 4:48 AM

Hello OneRock
YOUR QUESTION: Do you see why Scripture itself in 1 Tim 3:15 points Christians to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth which is the Church? So Nathaniel, how do you know YOU ARE NOT LEANING UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING when it comes to your interpretation of Scripture?

To give you the appropriate answer, tell me the following dependency, how would you interpret:
(i) 2 Timothy 2:15 – “…rightly dividing the Word of Truth” <– what does "rightly dividing the truth" mean and how you do it? Has God provided in scripture how to do it?
(ii) Compare your "assumptions about how God will fulfill His promises to the church with how God fulfilled His promises to Israel.
(iii) Have you even considered the possibility that God could fulfill His promises to the church by some means other than the Roman Catholic Church?
(iv) Does the term "church" referred in 1Timothy 3:15 point to the Roman Catholic Church headquartered in Rome? given the fact that there's no evidence whatsoever that Christ and the apostles wanted a worldwide denomination to govern all churches, settle all doctrinal disputes, interpret scripture for every Christian.The apostles never established a worldwide denomination centered in Rome, with all of the authority the Roman Catholic Church claims to have, no matter how practical the Catholic form of church government may seem to be.

Nathaniel Fernandes August 27, 2013 at 6:05 AM

Dear Poorknight:
Many thanks for your questions .. yes there are various stuff till today with us that are of pagan origin, but Christians do not make such idolatrous stuff as object of faith. For Christians, Jesus Christ is the only object of faith. If Martin Luther believed in eucharistic adoration .. yes he is an idolator, after all he comes from the side of the same coin. The Eucharist in the Monstrance, is nothing but a glorified form of Sun Worship. And yeah, if he removed books, so also the RCC also added books. Christians don’t follow Martin Luther, but follow Jesus Christ because Jesus is the Word and the truth. Again I will point you the St.Paul’s epistle to the Colossians to proclaim the preeminence of Christ, read thar epistle and deduce why he wrote that epistle.

You have built your house upon the shifting sand. You need to build your house on the Rock, which is Peter who is Divinely attached to the Rock of Christ.
Now Peter has become divine? What does Ephesians 2:20 or 1 Peter 2:6 say?

Also note: Christ Did Not Make His Church Infallible As The Catholic Church Teaches.

Bill 912 August 27, 2013 at 7:24 AM

Hatred, blinding pride, and an inability to conceive even the possibility of one’s fallibility: a wall which cannot be penetrated by facts or logic, only by Grace.

onerock August 27, 2013 at 8:08 AM

Nathaniel, PLEASE EXPLAIN to us then HOW YOU KNOW in your interpretation of Scripture YOU ARE NOT LEANING UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING (Proverbs 3:5)?

Among all the different Protestant denominations with all their contradicting doctrines (and even including the Catholic Church), it is YOUR interpretation of Scripture which is correct and which is not leaning on a personal (and incorrect) understanding of Scripture?

Hey, maybe you can convert some of the Catholics here if you can explain to us why you are correct and all the others are wrong (including even the Catholic Church which God used to give us the Bible) when it comes to the correct understanding of Scripture. :-)

So how do you know?

Looking forward to your explanation instead of another false accusation against Catholic teaching.

GOD Bless!

Nathaniel Fernandes August 27, 2013 at 2:05 PM

1.) I am a Christian saved by the precious Blood of the Lamb.

2.) God in his amazing grace amd mercy, saved me from my sin, when under conviction I realised how I was a desperate, destitute and wicked sinner before a Holy God, and that he sent his only begotten Son to die for me on the cross to obtain the forgiveness of my sins and was buried and rose the third day redeem, reconcile me to God obtaining me an irrevocable justification and salvation, now and future forever sealed with the Holy Spirit.

3.) As a Christian, I have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) that lives in me, to guide me in all truth.

4.) I am purely saved by God’s grace, and it is nothing I can offer or do to merit salvation nor is salvation wrought in a man’s heart, because salvation is a gift of God wrought in Christ Jesus. I simply come with empty hands of God given saving faith “Just As I am” to the cross believing/trusting everything what Christ God incarnate in the flesh, did in his all sufficient atonement.

5.) I truly know that salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ and not in a Church. The various epistles attest to this.

6.) When I interpret scripture, I know the Holy Spirit in me provides me guidance, so I lean not unto my own understanding but let scripture interpret scripture – its that simple. If you don’t have the indwelling Holy Spirit within you, all scripture interpretation will be skewed at best because another Spirit is now controlling you – in The RC Church its the Magisterium who will interpret scripture for you, so you will rely whatever they say – all you have to do is to obey sheepishly. If the Holy Spirit is guiding the RC Church through the Magisteriums Intepretation, than one only just needs to filter the intepretation and see if it lines up with scripture – and woefully it does not. Examine yourself if the RC Church has faithfully upheld the truth of scriptures till date.

7.) Scripture interpreting scripture is a scholarly technique commonly known as exegesis, and it is a very proper way to interpret scripture. Not necessarily always, but there IS wisdom in using the Bible to interpret the Bible. One of the reasons we know exegesis is reliable is because the bible is infallible, so using other scripture to HELP understand what is being spoken in a particular passage is ONE of the methods to avoid being led astray with false doctrine.

8.) God’s disclosure occurs in the context of his intersection and interaction with his creation. He reveals himself according to what he is doing in relation to his plan and program for all ages. This is why his speech is interlinked with his revelation. As he speaks, he reveals and as he reveals it is according to what he is doing. Revelation is according to God’s activity, not our understanding. What he has done has culminated in his Son, who fully reveals the Father and he has done so for the sole purpose of reconciling humanity to himself, which makes it a very personal and beautiful thing. It is no wonder that the Old Testament demonstrates actions and promises that foreshadow what will be accomplished in the Son. We see this succinctly in Hebrews 1:1-2;

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

We must understand the connection between God’s activity in the Old Testament with the written word, the presence of Christ on earth and his teaching, and the

apostles’ commission to be proclaimers of that message. They validate the testimony of that message and what that means for body of Christ, his Church today built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles (Ephesians 2:20). So reading the bible as divine revelation means considering how each component relates to his disclosure according to what he is accomplishing with respect to His plan of salvation. Revelation provides a succinct and beautiful unity of the 66 books of the bible.

9.) Revelation becomes the guide to interpretation according to what God is doing. We can then take the author, audience, genre of literature and theme into consideration to give us a fuller understanding against the backdrop of God’s overarching plan.

10.) The Bereans were commended for checking out what they were being taught. Again, Interpreting scripture with scripture is not the only way that must be used, but divine revelation must be analysed on how God is unfolding and dealing with people right from the Old Testament to the New Testament (Genesis – Revelation), the New Testament being the final new covenant by the Shed blood of the lamb the Lord Jesus Christ and eternal life available to anyone by faith trusting the merits of Christ’s atonement for mankind. That is why I asked you the question on 2 Timothy 2:15 as what does “rightly dividing the Word of truth” means – which you do not have an answer. Does God guide us on how how to righly divide the Word of truth in scripture?

Yes it is found in 1 Corinthians 10:32 - “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the Church of God:

11.) Having a accurate Bible translation like the KJV is also important. How can the Roamn Catholic Magisterium accurately interpret scripture when its relies of corrupted bibles?

God Bless you too!

Nathaniel Fernandes August 27, 2013 at 2:24 PM

Onerock:
Also another observation is that i find that Catholics quoting of scripture comes mostly from the Gospels. Which means the Gospels are only used as proof-texts to support Catholic theology, but the Gospels describe the life of Christ, and is a “moving target”. So the Catholic theology being stuck in the gospels is in error by making doctrine built around the gospels. From the Book of Acts, God divine plan of revelation is moving from the Jews to the Gentiles. If any Church builds its foundations in the period covering the gospels, than that church is in error.

onerock August 28, 2013 at 8:34 AM

So Nathaniel,

You claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit when you interpret scripture and by letting scripture interpret scripture;

Can you explain if it was the Holy Spirit who told you to use the KJV bible?
Using “scripture to interpret scripture” (and not relying on extra-biblical beliefs), where did you derive this belief to use the KJV?

Or isn’t it true that you are relying on outside, extra-biblical teaching which taught you to use the KJV? (Maybe some pastor told you?)

By the way, are you under the impression you are the only non-catholic christian who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit when you are making interpretations about bible teachings?

How about all the other “Spirit led” non-catholic, bible christians who disagree with your interpretations about bible teachings?

Who is correct? You? Can you explain?

Here’s a quote from the famous Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon:

“It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”

Looks like that quote very much applies to you. :-)

GOD Bless,
onerock

Julie August 29, 2013 at 10:03 AM

I think maybe Nathaniel is going to skate on onerock’s questions. Good questions onerock! I was wanting to ask Nathaniel if he can name any Christian martyrs from before the fourth century A.D. who were not Catholics. Thank you.

Nathaniel Fernandes August 29, 2013 at 1:04 PM

Onerock:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is “spiritual discernment” which is the ability to tell the difference between truth and error. With careful research the KJV contains God’s inerrant and infallible word preserved in the English Language. The Holy Spirit of Christ who indwells in all true believers testifies with your spirit that Christ has the preeminence and not religious syncretism – the later being led by the Spirit of Anti-Christ. People like Wycliffe,

How about all the other “Spirit led” non-catholic, bible Christians who disagree with your interpretations about bible teachings? Who is correct? You? Can you explain?

First off, when we talk about interpretations – I don’t mean that we must make the scripture and make them as proof text to support our own theology or to suit a pre-conceived notion, but study the word of God as apply the principles daily to our lives, as how God directs it. This involves the study of rightly dividing the Word of Truth (2 Timothy 2:15), study the bible dispensations. etc. This the correct procedure that God himself reveals we should follow in 1 Corinthians 10:32. For those other Bible Christians, one would have to gauge whether they rightly divide the Word of Truth according to what God has revealed. Remember: Christ himself did not make his Church infallible. Even St Peter committed error and St Paul rebuked him (Galatians 2:11). But the RC Church claims the need to have a central authority is far fetched – with no guarantee whatsoever that the Church won’t be in error. From its inception the RC Church has not always supported a biblical worldview, but a secular world view whose concerns is worldly power, money and domination. An ecumenical agenda to teach all religions are one which is certainly not what Christ would envisage. Only Christ is the head of the Church whether he is visible or invisible.

Here’s a quote from the famous Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon: “It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”

Please don’t misquote a great preacher the world has ever produced in Charles Spurgeon. As usual taking things of context in order make a case. This is usual tactic the RCC uses to throw smoke screens. Reading the entire text of Charles online, he was making observations commenting on non-usage of commentaries though himself did not follow suit. So he is not guilty for his observations.

True Bible-believing Christians always make an effort to not “lean unto their own understanding” (Prov. 3:5) However, this does not mean that Christians can’t get alone with God in their own private homes and prayer closets to sincerely seek His Face. Instead, the trust, faith and reliance of the Bible-believer is placed solely in the written word – the King James Bible. A Bible-believer’s faith in God’s written word, is commensurate and DIRECTLY RELATED TO his faith in the risen Lord Jesus Christ. One cannot exist without the other. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Word made Flesh (John 1:14). The Holy Bible is the word written on paper. And BOTH share the same name – the “Word of God” and the “word of God”. This is no accident. And because of this we receive the word “as it is in truth, the word of God” and NOT “as the word of men” (1 Thess. 2:13).The scriptural prophesies that the life of Christ fulfilled at His first advent, PROVES to us that His words are “true and faithful”, and can be relied upon apart from the input of extrabiblical sources. The contradictions, divisions and differing Bible interpretations within churches and denominations are ultimately the result of three things:

1.) Taking-away from God’s words;
2.) Adding-to God’s words;
3.) Misapplying God’s words (i.e. taking a fact or truth from one part of the Bible and trying to make it fit into another part of the Bible where it does not belong OR taking a passage “figuratively”, when it should be taken “literally” and vice versa).

It is the Holy Spirit, through His word, which leads and guides us unto all truth (John 16:13). We do not need the words of pagans, priests or popes to verify ANYTHING. It is written:

“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, it is because there is no light in them.” Isaiah 8:20

This applies to corrupt and/or mislead Bible preachers and teachers as well. And finally, the ground upon which we stand may be summarized thusly:

We DO NOT trust man or ourselves.

“Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jermiah 17:5&9

We DO trust God’s words.

“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: HATH HE SAID, and shall he not DO IT? or HATH HE SPOKEN, and shall he not MAKE IT GOOD?” Numbers 23:19

“For whatsoever things were WRITTEN aforetime were WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of THE SCRIPTURES might have hope.” Romans 15:4

Nathaniel Fernandes August 29, 2013 at 1:06 PM

Julie:
can only tell you what happened to me. Also, one other thing about that. I was a heavy drinker before the healing incident. Interestingly, that is gone now.

Obviously human feelings are deceptive. St. Paul says in Ephesians 5:18 – “And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit”. Obviously your experiences are due to alchohol widthrawal symptoms. Have you come to true repentance? but I suspect it is mere conscious conviction which all men are capable of
experiencing and which can drastically alter a person’s way of life. Under this kind of conviction the drunk will quit drinking, the adulterer will quit their philandering, and the nonreligious will act deeply religious. The problem with this kind of ‘repentance’ is that sinners are deceived into thinking everything
is alright, while in reality they are in worse shape than they were before this experience-“Woe (judgment) unto you, scribes and Pharisees (moral, sincere, religionists), hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves”- (Matthew 23:15).

I was wanting to ask Nathaniel if he can name any Christian martyrs from before the fourth century A.D. who were not Catholics.
Saint Stephen was stoned and some 2,000 other Christians suffered at the time of Stephen’s persecution Acts 6:8-8:3. lol :)

Leo August 29, 2013 at 10:07 PM

Nathaniel, I know that you are to proud to listen but just so you know catholics are not stupid.

Are you saying that the early Christians who did not use the king James version were in error?

Before the king James version, how did God let his word known?

You say catholics base their teachings only from the Gospels so they are wrong. Well let’s pretend for a minute that the CC actually bases her teachings from the gospels alone. Now, show me a scripture passage from the other books of the NT that contradict the teachings about the power to forgive sins, or the true presence.

And just so you know, I too received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour

Julie August 30, 2013 at 8:45 AM

Nathaniel, And where are St. Stephen’s remains?

Julie August 30, 2013 at 9:50 AM

I am sharing here a Facebook post by St. Paul Street Evangelization:
St. Paul Street Evangelization
A Southern Baptist was stunned to learn the true reason why Protestant bibles are missing 7 books while Catholic Bibles have all 73 books. Jeff asked this Protestant: “So why do you think Martin Luther removed those books?” Surprisingly, after thinking about it, the Baptist said: “I bet they had things in them that disagreed with Luther’s theology and teachings.” With much enthusiasm, Jeff replied, “BINGO!” Jeff then briefly explained the history of the Bible, specifically how the Catholic Church was responsible for collecting these 73 inspired writings and preserving them. The early Christians knew that only the Popes and Councils had the authority to settle questions about the Bible, such as what books belonged in it, and that individual Christians were never allowed to just throw out books they personally didn’t like.
Jeff then shared some of the doctrines taught in these books that Protestants reject. Surprisingly, the Baptist concluded: “I guess I need to seriously study this. It sounds like the Catholic Church holds the authority of scripture. I guess I don’t know if my church is even teaching the right things without those missing books… I’m going to have to do a lot of praying and research.”
The team gave him plenty of materials and an invitation to call or email with further questions. Jeff wants other Catholics to know: “More often than we realize, the Holy Spirit will present us with opportunities to greatly impact someone. It could be one word, one action. In this case, I realized that this man was open and searching.”

Nathaniel Fernandes August 30, 2013 at 1:14 PM

Julie,
Nathaniel, And where are St. Stephen’s remains?
I wouldn’t be too concerned of St.Stephen’s mortal remains, cause he is with heaven Jesus enjoying eternal bliss with his creator.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God …

Note that he was a saint while he was still alive. All true believers are saints in the body of Christ and will reign with Jesus Christ in heaven. True believers don’t need to be canonized as saints after their deaths. Come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and don’t get influenced what men tell you. While all this history stuff kinda sounds like suave music to your ears, buying indulgences, go on aimless pilgrimages, atone for your own sins that leads to self-righteousness and swollen pride … its all sinister designed to get your focus away from the Truth the way and the life – Jesus Christ.

Julie August 30, 2013 at 6:56 PM

Well, Nathaniel, that was a great way of avoiding my question! Based on your last post, I see that you don’t know anything about Catholicism. Meanwhile, let us all pray for the wonderful Baptist seeker who talked to St. Paul Street Evangelization, that he will find the truth, friendship with Jesus, and joy in His church.

Julie August 30, 2013 at 7:01 PM

I forgot. And God bless you also, Nathaniel. :)

onerock August 31, 2013 at 7:17 PM

Here’s a quote from the famous Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon: “It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”
Please don’t misquote a great preacher the world has ever produced in Charles Spurgeon. As usual taking things of context in order make a case. This is usual tactic the RCC uses to throw smoke screens. Reading the entire text of Charles online, he was making observations commenting on non-usage of commentaries though himself did not follow suit. So he is not guilty for his observations.
- See more at: http://www.catholic-convert.com/blog/2013/08/08/nathaniels-converted-5-catholics-out-of-the-church/#sthash.XdHvpj4P.dpuf

So Nathaniel, since you are claiming the quote I provided from Spurgeon is out of context and does not apply to you, are you saying then that YOU are not belittling what the Holy Spirit has revealed to other Christians?

Based on YOUR interpretation of Scripture, you are making the assertion that the Holy Spirit guides you directly (and without the Holy Spirit using the Church authority as a conduit for this guidance); Are you not belittling what the Holy Spirit has revealed to this other christian, St. Paul when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV:
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:29 KJV:
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Ephesians 4:11 KJV:
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

So when it comes to the correct interpretation and understanding of Scripture, defend your assertion then that the Holy Spirit guides you directly without the use of God established church authorities as conduits for this guidance.

Nathaniel, did the Holy Spirit reveal to us Christians there is such thing as a Church heirarchy which God uses as the channel to provide us His guidance concerning the correct interpretation of scripture?

(Hey mind you, these bible quotes I provided you are not from the gospels.) :-)

Nathaniel Fernandes September 1, 2013 at 12:41 PM

Again, it is the same tactic of pulling verses out of context. The bible the not support roman catholic theology.

- Since you quote Eph 4:11 … you will notice there are no roles mentioned for priests or popes. You will also need to

understand what are the roles of those mentioned in the said verse vis-a-vis the roles of priests and popes. In the New

Testament covenant, the role of the levitical priesthood ended. Christ became the univeral priesthood who offered up

himself to the sins of the world as he the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

In Ephesian 4:11, St.Paul writes to Timothy who was in Ephesus exhorting and training him how the structure of the local

church is organised. Each local New Testament church is automomously independent of other local churches and is not based

on the “lording-type” of concept the Roman Catholic Church promotes. In other words, these local churches established by

paul and others do not have a central authority. Christ himself did not make his Church infallible and it is easy to see

that Catholics have the authority in the wrong place. The authority is not in the body, but in the Head (Eph. 1:22-23; Col.

1:18). The ruling is not in the kingdom, but in the King (Heb. 7:1-2; Rev. 1:5-6). The authority is in not in the church,

but in Christ (Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3:22). The church is not the Savior, but simply the body of the saved (Acts 2:47; Eph.

5:22-24). The early churches had to earnestly contend for the faith, and to continually be on guard against error arising

from within. The doctrine of an “infallible church” causes the Catholic Church to fail in this. The Catholic Church is a

church which neither recognizes nor corrects its errors.

Again its important to know that in a New Testament Church only Christ has the prememinence, being the visible and invisible head of the Church. My question to you is whether

this is the case with the RCC? Many teachings of the RCC are man made riddled with theological errors. For instance the RCC teaches

that Christ came to earth to show us the way to be right with God, in other words he did not fully accomplish redemption for the human race, but

the scripture saith the “HE DID IT ALL”. Do you understand what has Christ has accompished on the cross for you being a

destitute wicked sinner? Every year the RCC calls to vatican an ecumenical meet of all relgions with the intention of

establshing a “one-world religion” – is this the concept Christ taught? Can one say the Roman Catholic Church is led by the

Holy Spirit? Nay.. its a false Anti-Christ spirit?

Nathaniel, did the Holy Spirit reveal to us Christians ..
The question is do you follow Christ only? Christian means “Christ”-ians a name given to followers of Christ only. What did Jesus say of the Holy Spirit in John 15:26? My observance for about 2 years the Catholic Church is making use of Christian terminology in all its publications and press coverage. The pope even claims himself as the self-appointed “Pastor of the Universal Church”. The Catholic church needs to reform itself first, but its too steeped in pride and arrogance. Also my observance is that majority Roman Catholics are “boisterous” in nature. Probably the cause surely points to the worship of the eucharist – worshipping the sun god.

Bill 912 September 1, 2013 at 2:54 PM

“Every year the RCC calls to (sic) vatican(sic) an ecumenical meet(sic) of all relgions(sic) with the intention of

(sic)

establshing(sic) a ‘one-world religion”…

Lie.

Nathaniel Fernandes September 2, 2013 at 12:57 AM

Ecumenism: The doctrine of the ecumenical movement promoting cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations; aimed at universal Christian unity.

Satan’s purpose is to achieve a One-World Religion, and ultimately lead all their followers to worship the man of sin, the Antichrist.

The philosophy and agenda are innocent sounding enough, and no doubt are promoted by many sincere people; HOWEVER, ecumenism is one of Satan’s primary tactics to infiltrate the New Testament Church, corrupting souls and leading them astray from the Word of God. Ecumenism is of the Devil, and I will explain to you clearly why.

The Bible teaches that it’s better to be divided by truth, than to be united by error. 2nd Corinthians 6:14, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” Bible-believing Christians are commanded not to form unequal yokes with unbelievers (i.e., the unsaved). This means that a New Testament Church ought not yoke together in any capacity with religious belief systems of the world that damn men’s souls to Hell forever. Christianity and Christ is lost in a church that amalgamates a various hotch-potch of religious belief systems other that Christ only. Whether it be the heresy of Baptismal Salvation, Works Salvation, Sacramental Salvation or Lordship Salvation; these are all perversions of the simplicity that is in Christ (2nd Corinthians 11:3-4). Eternal life is a free gift (Romans 5:15; 6:23) that you simply receive by faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God (John 1:14; 20:31).

The Bible uses the simplest of terms in 2nd Corinthians 6:14… “light” verses “darkness,” and “righteousness” verses “unrighteousness.” There is no common denominator. There is no unity. This is exactly what God is saying to us. James 4:4 tells us that friendship with the world makes a person God’s enemy. It is a shame that professed Christians are forming ties with the enemies of God. Those religious teachers who pervert the simplicity of the Gospel and corrupt the Doctrine of Christ are the children of darkness. We ought not hobnob and rub shoulders with them in ecumenical apostasy and sinful compromise. This is why it is evil to support, promote or yoke together with any religion that perverts the Gospel or corrupts the Doctrine of Christ. Thus, Biblical Christians ought not fellowship with heathen. What fellowship hath light with darkness?

Ecumenicals Preach Love and Unity; But Totally Disregard Truth

Bill 912 September 2, 2013 at 7:55 AM

Lying, hatred, a refusal or inability to concede the possibility of his own fallibility, and pride that blinds him from recognizing these things: a hideous combination that cries out for prayer; continuing dialogue may only re-enforce the shields he has placed around his mind.

Nathaniel Fernandes September 2, 2013 at 2:58 PM

Bill912:
All your “Shakespeare” type quotes reflects your worldly thinking – a fruit of a natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. – Provide some valuable contribution as others herein have taken time to do so, and stop trolling on to blogs posting “two-liners” that speaks of your ignorance. Hope you’re paying your taxes.

Bill 912 September 3, 2013 at 7:49 AM

I rest my case.

onerock September 3, 2013 at 8:02 AM

Nathaniel,

So in very clear and simple terms, when it comes to the correct understanding and rightly “dividing the Word of Truth (Bible)”, your position is that YOU are INFALLIBLE and therefore can be referred to as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

Isn’t that your position? (YES / NO) :-)

Thanks and GOD Bless!
onerock

Nathaniel Fernandes September 3, 2013 at 2:38 PM

OneRock,

No. That is not my position as described by you. Only the scriptures are infallible. Christians must simply obey what the scriptures teach and apply the principles to our daily lives. It is the standard rule of faith.

The whole New Testament Church that comprises the body of saved souls are altogether the pillar an ground of truth with Jesus Christ being the head of the body on earth. Look at this illustration: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispensa/10-1.GIF. The truth is God Word as Jesus said in John 17:17 “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth”. The New Testament Church upholds the truth of God’s Word. We as Christians are called to ensure its preservation to be a shining light in a dark lost corrupted sin ridden world. But at the same time it is not implied that the New Testament Church will fullfill its resposnsibility infallibly as Jesus did not envisage that at his first coming. It will only be certain at his Second Coming and that is why St.Paul writes in Ephesians 4:13 – “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”.

1 John_5:13 – These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Colossians 1:14 – In whom we have redemption through his blood even the forgiveness of sins.

Nathaniel Fernandes September 4, 2013 at 11:51 AM

OneRock,

I have replied to your above post, but I guess Steve is not compelled to approve it I guess :(

God Bless

STEVE RAY HERE
CORRECT. SEEMS TO HAVE GONE FAR ENOUGH. TOO CONDESCENDING AND VAPID ARGUMENTS. SORRY BUT THE IRRATIONALITY GETS TEDIOUS. IM IN ISRAEL AND HAVE TO MODERATE. TO READ ALL YOUR POSTS IS …

Leave a Comment

 

Previous post:

Next post: