Absent from the Body = Present with the Lord?

by Steve Ray on April 30, 2014

I realize now – that as a Protestant — I misquoted the Bible when challenging Catholics about Purgatory. Catholics taught that there was a “transition” between earth and heaven—a place or state of final purification called Purgatory.

purgatory.jpg“But how can there be a Purgatory?” I asked. “Doesn’t St. Paul teach that ‘to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord’?  Since ‘absence from the body’ means that we are immediately in ‘the presence of the Lord,’ there can’t be anything called Purgatory. Catholics deny the clear teaching of the Bible!”

Whoa! Slow down! Is this really what the Bible says?

First, that is a misreading of the Bible—a twisting of Scripture to score a point. The Bible does NOT say “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Rather it says,

“So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:6-8).

This is very different from my old argument. Paul would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord, but certainly doesn’t say it the way I twisted it in my old anti-Catholic days.

If I want to be away from Michigan in the winter I might say “In the winter we would rather be away from Michigan and present in Arizona.” It does NOT say that to be away from Michigan that I am instantly or automatically in Arizona. My in-laws go between Arizona and Michigan twice a year and they stop a lot along the way. It usually takes them 3-4 weeks to get from one to the other as the visit and camp along the way.

We understand that this language leaves room for a transition period—especially in an automobile or plane with a possible motel or visit along the way. Paul’s words also leave room for such a transition; it does not exclude Purgatory.

Second, Paul teaches that we will pass through fire. Notice what he says in 1 Corinthians 3:15: On “the Day” if “any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”  Sounds like Purgatory to me.

Third, Purgatory is not “away from the Lord” strictly speaking. Those in Purgatory—whether it is a place or a state of transition—are not apart from the Lord. In fact, it is the love of God that is purifying them. I have always said that Purgatory is like the front porch of heaven. Those who are in Purgatory know they have arrived! But you can read more about that in my article on Purgatory here. (link fixed)

So, don’t let someone trick you with the old “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” argument. It is fallacious and deceptive. Again, the Catholic Church is correct.

{ 40 comments… read them below or add one }

JohnD November 13, 2008 at 8:16 PM

The “Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” argument would also imply that Hell (a place of which Jesus often talked) does not exist.

Maybe that’s why it doesn’t get used much.

KraigK December 11, 2008 at 5:05 PM

The “Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” argument would also imply that Hell (a place of which Jesus often talked) does not exist.

Why would Jesus talk about a place that doesn’t exist? The quote you are talking about only applies to Christians. Hell is the final destination for all non-believers.
You, JohnD, apparently don’t believe what Jesus said. You need to read the New Testament more to see that mostly what Jesus talked about was the Kingdom of God, not hell.

TuanT June 24, 2009 at 1:49 PM

Hi Steve,
As Christians, when we die, our physical body dies, but our spirit goes to be with Jesus. Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” There’s no waiting. Unfortunately, when non-Christians die, they go to hell. There is no in-between, for if a person doesn’t receive Jesus while he is alive, then neither will they receive Him after death. Remember what Abraham said to the rich man in hell, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.” (Luke 16:31) That rich man went into hell and torment, not purgatory. (Luke 16:22-23) At the last trumpet, is when we will be given an immortal body, when our spirit, who has been with Jesus, will unite with our given immortal body. (1 Cor. 15:52) –”the truth is still the truth, even if a billion people votes 1+1=3.”

STEVE RAY HERE: SEEMS YOU ARE READING THE BIBLE RATHER SELECTIVELY TUAN AND MISSING SOME IMPORTANT DATA. I WILL ALLOW YOUR POST BUT WITH RESERVATION SINCE THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY THAN YOU ARE PRESENTING.

James Rosa February 25, 2010 at 12:16 PM

Praise be Jesus Christ and Blessed be His Holy Mother for all generations!

Hi Bro. Steve,
In the King James version it is quoted “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” Which interpretaion is correct?

Thanks, and may Yeshua continue to bless you and your ministry!

-James Rosa

bill912 February 25, 2010 at 1:50 PM

“Why would Jesus talk about a place that doesn’t exist?” He didn’t, nor did JohnD imply a disbelief in hell. He was criticizing the “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord argument.

“The quote you are talking about applies only to Christians.” “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” is not a quote from the Bible; it is a misquote of 2Cor. 5:8.

“You, JohnD, apparently don’t believe what Jesus said.” JohnD never said he doesn’t believe in hell. Nor did he say that he didn’t believe what Jesus said.

bill912 February 25, 2010 at 1:58 PM

Since there are no punctuation marks in ancient languages, our Lord’s words to the Good Thief can also be translated: \Assuredly, I say to you today: you will be with me in Paradise.\

\Unfortunately, when non-Christians die, they go to hell.\ If that is so, then, at the Last Judgment, when some of the just ask Jesus: \Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, etc.\, and He replies: \Whenever you did this for the least of my brothers, you did it for me\, to whom will he be speaking? We Christians already know that what we do for others, we do for Jesus. He must be talking about those \other sheep, that are not of (His) fold\.

Brother Ed February 25, 2010 at 5:14 PM

Hi Steve –

Good points, but the most important to me was simply this: the idea of “imputed righteousness,” which is the foundation by which Protestants think they are made righteous and therefore have the right to instant access to Heaven, is as false as the day is long. It comes from making a word in English say exactly the opposite of what it means in Greek. This sort of very loose handling of the Bible, especially by pastors who are supposed to know Greek and some who even brag of it, is what makes my have a rather strong distaste for these people. If that lacks charity, so be it. When you read what the Early Fathers had to say about heretics (which was NOT all that nice) I may be in good company, even if I couldn’t carry St. John Chrysostom’s sandals.

The idea of forensic justification is that because we are “totally depraved” we have no innate ability to have righteousness in and of ourselves, even if we are doing good deeds. Therefore, when God saw Abraham exercise faith in Him, God said “Awwwww, poor little feller. Trusts in me, he does. I like that, so since he is totally depraved, I’ll give him a whopping big dose of my Son’s righteousness and then I’ll clear the “GUILTY” sign off his ledger and replace it with the legal designation “NOT GUILTY”. That way he can come right to Heaven”

Nice tale. False. Totally bogus.

The Greek word “loziomai”, which is translated as “imputed” means “to count”. It is an accounting term. It means you count what is really there. When God counted (logizomai) Abraham as righteous, He was able to do so because Abraham was really righteous. Romans has a verse that says that faith IS righteousness.

In other words, God deals with each of us JUST AS WE ARE!!!

Which means that if I have not worked on cleansing my soul, on becoming like Christ in divinization, in eschewing sin and forming habits of righteousness here on earth — well, when I die, God is going to deal with me just as I am. I do not get to hide under the snow white blanket of Christ’s righteousness.

And thus — purging after death.

And for some of us more stubborn sinners such as I, with those hard to get rid of sins that dog us constantly, I see Purgatory as a great mercy from God.

Thank yew, Jazuz (Can I git an Aaaaa men brethren?)

Mike H February 26, 2010 at 9:00 AM

Brother Ed:

Amen !!! As Mother Teresea said \My goal is to get to purgatory\.

lifeisagift March 4, 2010 at 6:42 PM

Great post! Purgatory is logical, there are so many of us who are not doing evil, but not doing Gods complete will either, there has to be a place of purification. The bible consistently speaks of cleansing and purification in a multitude of situations. If someone comes to your house with mud on their shoes do you let them in, or require that they take off their shoes and enter only with clean feet? Only with God we must have a clean soul. (no pun intended)

You can’t enter Gods house with mud on your shoes, or sin on your soul!

Thanks for the info I will be here again..

Sean April 18, 2012 at 2:56 PM

Steve/Ed/Mike,
I think the biggest question you should be asking (about purgatory and many other Catholic requirements) is whether or not the work of Jesus was sufficient. In other words, you believe there’s something you HAVE to do to help Him save you and protestants don’t. There’s NOTHING we can bring to the table for our salvation…absolutely nothing. Either we put all our trust in Jesus or just some of it. What you’re saying is that Jesus’ work and death only gets you so far…then you have to finish what he started because it was sufficient for your salvation.

Reading Galatians 5 you’ll see that some wanted to add circumcision as a requirement. They wanted to add just one form of ‘work’, just one ‘necessary’ requirement and what does Paul tell them? Galatians 5:2-4 2Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4YOU ARE SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (capitalization mine)

The point of this is that Paul tells them that if they add just one thing to the saving grace, that they are SEVERED from Christ. That’s no small thing being SEVERED from Christ. In other words, if you put your faith in Christs completed work, you’re SEVERED from Him.

Steve,
I noticed that based on your warning to TUANT that you can choose whether or not to post this. However, the Truth should be able to stand against any and all accusations. Let’s see how your assertion stands against God’s Word.

Sean April 18, 2012 at 3:00 PM

Correction to above….
It should read….
…what he started because it was insufficient for your salvation.

Thomas May 27, 2012 at 2:35 PM

The thief on the cross next to Jesus asked if Jesus would remember him when He comes into His Kingdom.

Jesus’ response was, “Assuredly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:42-43.

No lobby.

Joel D'Souza June 26, 2012 at 3:29 AM

Lets observe the rendition of the bible translations involved ESV (as Steve suggests) and the KJV.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (ESV)
“So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord”.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV)
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

There are differences in the italicized words “Courage” and “Confident”. The KJV is the winner, hands down.

De Maria June 26, 2012 at 9:35 AM

Hi Steve, and all the rest,

There are other verses, which, I think, must be considered in order to understand the concept of Purgatory:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Psalm 139:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

God is in hell, folks. God is that consuming fire (Deut 4:24) which punished eternally in hell and cleanses the soul in Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15).

Scott Hahn put it like this:
….Now the saints in heaven would freeze in purgatory, and hell fire for the saints in heaven would be like ice, dry ice. Our God is a consuming fire. The periphery of the universe is hell fire. That isn’t the hottest. The hottest is what you find when you get closest to God. Out of the nine choirs of angels, the highest are the Seraphim. In Hebrew it means the burning ones. They glow bright because they are consumed with this passionate, fiery love that God has for all eternity for us as His children…..

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria June 26, 2012 at 10:01 AM

Hi TuanT,

You said:
As Christians, when we die, our physical body dies, but our spirit goes to be with Jesus.

Scripture says:
Revelation 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Are these Christians who shall receive a crown of life, AFTER they go to a spiritual prison cast into it by the devil? What do Protestants call this temporary stop before going to heaven?

Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” There’s no waiting.

For some, there is no waiting. That is why we believe in the Assumption of Mary. She went straight to heaven. However, as seen in Rev 2:10, above, some faithful Christians will make a pitstop in Purgatory before they go to heaven.

But, you might ask, what about St. Dismas (i.e. the Good Thief) then? Why didn’t he go to Purgatory? Several reasons:
1st. Jesus is sovereign God. His Word is law. So, therefore St. Dismas went straight to heaven after he died, according to Christ’s word. HOWEVER, note that St. Dismas didn’t die immediately upon Christ’s word. But continued to suffer even after Christ died. Why? I’ll list the reasons below:

2. Christ does not contradict His own Word. Scripture says:
1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Therefore, St. Dismas had to expiate his sin before he went to heaven. Jesus knew this, therefore He did not permit St. Dismas to die before he suffered sufficiently upon his cross (John 19:31-33).

3. Scripture also says:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Note that St. Dismas died in union with Christ. Compare him to the other thief who died in disunion with Christ.

4. Scripture continues:
Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Note that St. Dismas also confessed Jesus before men (Luke 23:39-41).

5. Note also, that St. Dismas did a work of gold (1 Cor 3:10-15). His confession is memorialized in Scripture for eternity and has converted many men to the Faith of our Lord, Jesus Christ (James 5:19-20).

And St. Dismas went straight to heaven, in accordance with all the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Unfortunately, when non-Christians die, they go to hell. There is no in-between, for if a person doesn’t receive Jesus while he is alive, then neither will they receive Him after death. Remember what Abraham said to the rich man in hell, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.” (Luke 16:31) That rich man went into hell and torment, not purgatory. (Luke 16:22-23)

The word, hell, in Scripture, means the place of the dead. Not the place of the damned. Now, Dives, the Rich Man, was not in the hell of the damned, because if he had been in the hell of the damned, and this is Protestant doctrine, he would not have been concerned about the spiritual condition of his brothers. Therefore, since he showed care and concern for them, Dives must have been in Purgatory.

Unless you can show from your own doctrine, that people in hell care about each other and wish to prevent each other injury and harm.

At the last trumpet, is when we will be given an immortal body, when our spirit, who has been with Jesus, will unite with our given immortal body. (1 Cor. 15:52) –”the truth is still the truth, even if a billion people votes 1+1=3.”

That is true. And the Catholic Church continues to preach that truth (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10).

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria June 26, 2012 at 10:17 AM

Hi Bro Ed,

There is an excellent explanation about logizamai, here.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria June 26, 2012 at 10:41 AM

Hi Sean,

You said,
I think the biggest question you should be asking (about purgatory and many other Catholic requirements)

Purgatory is only a requirement for those who die in an imperfect state of grace, if they want to go to heaven.
And, it is God’s requirement (Rev 21:27) which the Church affirms as she does all the Teachings of God.

is whether or not the work of Jesus was sufficient.

It certainly was. That is why we are now able to walk with the Saints upon Mt. Sion (Heb 12:18-24). You only get here through the Sacraments (Titus 3:5).

In other words, you believe there’s something you HAVE to do to help Him save you and protestants don’t. There’s NOTHING we can bring to the table for our salvation…absolutely nothing.

You’d better bring something (Matt 25:31-45). Because if there is nothing written in the Book of Life in your behalf, you will live eternity in the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:15).

Either we put all our trust in Jesus or just some of it.

Those who put all their faith in Jesus, obey Him (Heb 5:9).

What you’re saying is that Jesus’ work and death only gets you so far…then you have to finish what he started because it was sufficient for your salvation.

That is what Jesus says (John 14:21-23; Matt 10:38; Matt 7:21).

Reading Galatians 5 you’ll see that some wanted to add circumcision as a requirement. They wanted to add just one form of ‘work’, just one ‘necessary’ requirement and what does Paul tell them? Galatians 5:2-4 2Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4YOU ARE SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (capitalization mine)

Circumcision is one of the ordinances which was annulled by Christ (Col 2:14; 1 Cor 7:19). We must do the works which Christ commanded (Rev 22:12-15).

The point of this is that Paul tells them that if they add just one thing to the saving grace, that they are SEVERED from Christ. That’s no small thing being SEVERED from Christ. In other words, if you put your faith in Christs completed work, you’re SEVERED from Him.

You get that message if you ignore many verses in Scripture. St. Paul also said (Romans 2:1-13; Gal 5:6; 1 Thess 1:3; Heb 6:10).

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria June 26, 2012 at 10:45 AM

Hi Thomas,

You said;
The thief on the cross next to Jesus asked if Jesus would remember him when He comes into His Kingdom.

Jesus’ response was, “Assuredly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:42-43.

No lobby.

For St. Dismas, that is true. But there are many reasons for that. All Catholic:

1st. Jesus is sovereign God. His Word is law. So, therefore St. Dismas went straight to heaven after he died, according to Christ’s word. HOWEVER, note that St. Dismas didn’t die immediately upon Christ’s word. But continued to suffer even after Christ died. Why? I’ll list the reasons below:

2. Christ does not contradict His own Word. Scripture says:
1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Therefore, St. Dismas had to expiate his sin before he went to heaven. Jesus knew this, therefore He did not permit St. Dismas to die before he suffered sufficiently upon his cross (John 19:31-33).

3. Scripture also says:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Note that St. Dismas died in union with Christ. Compare him to the other thief who died in disunion with Christ.

4. Scripture continues:
Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Note that St. Dismas also confessed Jesus before men (Luke 23:39-41).

5. Note also, that St. Dismas did a work of gold (1 Cor 3:10-15). His confession is memorialized in Scripture for eternity and has converted many men to the Faith of our Lord, Jesus Christ (James 5:19-20).

And St. Dismas went straight to heaven, in accordance with all the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria June 26, 2012 at 10:51 AM

Hi Joel,
You said:
Lets observe the rendition of the bible translations involved ESV (as Steve suggests) and the KJV.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (ESV)
“So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord”.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV)
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

They both say the same thing, Joel. The KJV also includes these verses:
Revelation 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Where is that place where Christians will go before they receive a crown of life?

1 Corinthians 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What do you call this place where a man is saved as though by fire?

We call that place, Purgatory.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sincerely,

De Maria

There are differences in the italicized words “Courage” and “Confident”. The KJV is the winner, hands down.

De Maria June 26, 2012 at 10:59 AM

Joel,

you said:
There are differences in the italicized words “Courage” and “Confident”. The KJV is the winner, hands down.

As I said, they both say the same thing. I use the KJV to respond to Protestants. However, it is reputed to be an error filled bible, even by some Protestants. See this Protestant site.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Joel D'souza June 26, 2012 at 12:15 PM

De maria:
“Courage” relates to something physical whereas “Confident” is strong belief or full assurance. They don’t say the same thing. See http://dictionary.reference.com.

As I said, they both say the same thing. I use the KJV to respond to Protestants. However, it is reputed to be an error filled bible, even by some Protestants. See this Protestant site.

Typographical error can creep in which is un-avoidable. However The King James Version has been carefully proof-read for 400 years. Today’s editions are reliable, having all printing errors corrected – See http://www.kjvtoday.com/. The source manuscripts are accurate unlike other translations which are powered by the corrupt Vaticanus Sinaiticus (VC) manuscripts – NIV plus all Catholic Bibles all powered by the VC. The Douay Rheims doctored to include Catholic theology and contains words not found in the original mansuacripts.

The NABRE is indeed a nototious translation, it dilutes the concept of “Trinity” found in 1 John 5:7. The NABRE is very vague and will mislead the first time reader. The KJV gives royal honour to the “Trinity”. Satan is at work in the NABRE to undermine the “Trinity”

1 John 5:7 (NABRE)
So there are three that testify

1 John 5:7 (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

De Maria June 26, 2012 at 3:28 PM

Joel,

You may be very proud of the KJV. However, the KJV, just as any other Bible in the world, supports Catholic doctrine. You will not find Sola Scriptura, or Sola Fide or any of the other heretical doctrines of the Protestants in any Bible in the world. No matter how poorly translated they might be.

But you will find all Catholic doctrine in all of them, implied or explicit. No matter how poorly translated they might be.

If you haven’t noticed yet, I have been using the KJV exclusively to disprove all your objections to Catholic Teaching.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Joel D'Souza June 26, 2012 at 11:52 PM

De Maria:
Joel,
You may be very proud of the KJV…

I am sincerely proud of God’s deity being given honour, magnified, exalted and Glorified in the KJV in comparison to other translations. This is important. Psalm 138:2 – “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name”. I also do believe that John 17:17 is the foundation of Sola scriptura.

Joel D'Souza June 27, 2012 at 6:59 AM

De Maria:

There are other verses, which, I think, must be considered in order to understand the concept of Purgatory: Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I really enjoy how you trudge to and from OT to NT pulling out verses just to back you claim and overshadow everybody’s opinions. The Cult outfit Seven Day Adventists (SDAs) also love that verse you have quoted because they preach about “soul-sleep” – research this.

Now don’t tell me SDAs and Catholicism share the same views.

De Maria June 27, 2012 at 8:20 AM

Hi Joel,
I am sincerely proud of God’s deity being given honour, magnified, exalted and Glorified in the KJV in comparison to other translations.

I believe most Bibles are written by men of good faith. And all attempt to be faithful to the Word of God. So, I believe they all honor, magnify, exalt and glorify God equally.

This is important. Psalm 138:2 – “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name”.

Beautiful passage. The equivalent in the Douay says:
: [2] I will worship towards thy holy temple, and I will give glory to thy name. For thy mercy, and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy holy name above all.

Note how confusedly the KJV says, “thou has magnified thy word above all thy name”. Do we really honor His Word above His Name?

Whereas the Douay so eloquently says, “thou has magnified thy holy name above all”. Because God’s name is so holy that the Jews would not even pronounce it. His name is above all.

I also do believe that John 17:17 is the foundation of Sola scripture.

In spite of the fact that it says nothing about Sola Scriptura and the Bible tells you elsewhere to hear the Church (Matt 18:17), submit to the Priests (Heb 13:17), hold tradition (2 Thess 2:15), and that the Word of God is passed down by Word (Heb 13:7; 1 Thess 2:13). In spite of all that, you hold to a tradition of men which contradicts the Word of God in Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria June 27, 2012 at 8:32 AM

Hi Joel,
I really enjoy how you trudge to and from OT to NT pulling out verses just to back you claim and overshadow everybody’s opinions.

Thanks again Joel. I do my best to obey God who said (Matthew 13:52).

The Cult outfit Seven Day Adventists (SDAs) also love that verse you have quoted because they preach about “soul-sleep” – research this.

Now don’t tell me SDAs and Catholicism share the same views.

That’s interesting. By that logic, you must share the same beliefs as the Mormons (LDS). They use the KJV to support their doctrines. They love to use Matt 28:19 to support the idea of a Trinity composed of three gods. Don’t tell me you share the same views with the Mormons.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Joel D'souza June 27, 2012 at 11:15 AM

De Maria:

Note how confusedly the KJV says, “thou has magnified thy word above all thy name”. Do we really honor His Word above His Name?

The Douay version’s interpretation is Wrong completely. The KJV is right. In the KJV God says He magnifies His Word (scripture) above His name. Which means he magnifies or gives above all else first preference to his Holy Word then His own name. Which also means He cannot lie because Word is truth and stands forever from generation to generation. Jesus affirms this in Mathew 24:35. God will not magnify traditions though. The Douay interpretation is twisted for ulterior motives.

The NABRE is also worse like the rats plague:
I bow low toward your holy temple;
I praise your name for your mercy and faithfulness.
For you have exalted over all
your name and your promise.

De Maria June 27, 2012 at 1:20 PM

Hi Joel,

The Douay version’s interpretation is Wrong completely. The KJV is right. In the KJV God says He magnifies His Word (scripture) above His name.

Do you magnify the Bible above God? Then it is true and I never believed it. You, Protestants, make an idol of a book.

As for Catholics, we put God above everything. Including the Bible.

Which means he magnifies or gives above all else first preference to his Holy Word then His own name. Which also means He cannot lie because Word is truth and stands forever from generation to generation. Jesus affirms this in Mathew 24:35. God will not magnify traditions though. The Douay interpretation is twisted for ulterior motives.

No Joel. We don’t idolize the Bible. We honor God more than any creature. And whether you like it or not, the Bible is a simple creature object.

The NABRE is also worse like the rats plague:
I bow low toward your holy temple;
I praise your name for your mercy and faithfulness.
For you have exalted over all
your name and your promise.

That sounds better than the KJV rendering to me. In both cases, it is recognized as exalted above all. And His word is not construed as being pitted against God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

IgnatiusBenedict June 27, 2012 at 4:00 PM

Go De Maria! Go De Maria! You are a gifted defender of our Faith. I’m sure Ray is proud to have you battle it out on his website as you do it with charity and truth.

Peace

Joel D'souza June 27, 2012 at 8:42 PM

De Maria:

Do you magnify the Bible above God? Then it is true and I never believed it. You, Protestants, make an idol of a book.

The Bible is the Word of God, whatever one may say or think otherwise. I/we magnify God’s Holy and precious Word above everything else. That is my strong conviction of the truths of His Holy Word and as an ambassador in chains as St.Paul says – for the sake of the Gospel. Protestants never make a idol of a book its simply your imaginations. They only abide in the Word of God because its all sufficient for them. After all the scale of preference in a democratic society is always an alternative forgone.

De Maria June 27, 2012 at 10:14 PM

Hello Joel,

The Bible is the Word of God,

The Bible is a book which contains the Word of God, Joel. Jesus is the Word of God. He is not contained in a book (John 21:25).

whatever one may say or think otherwise.

Whatever you may so or think otherwise, the Bible in your hand is not Jesus Christ and it is not God. It is a book.

I/we magnify God’s Holy and precious Word above everything else.

We magnify God above everything else (Luke 1:46).

That is my strong conviction of the truths of His Holy Word and as an ambassador in chains as St.Paul says – for the sake of the Gospel.

YOU consider yourself an ambassador of Christ but deny that the Church and the Pope are ambassadors. Mighty humble of you.

I however, recognize the authority of the Church as Scripture teaches (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10) and the authority of the Pope (Matt 16:18). But your authority, I see nowhere in Scripture.

Protestants never make a idol of a book its simply your imaginations.

It is you who said you hold it above the name of God.

They only abide in the Word of God because its all sufficient for them.

The Word of God is sufficient for us as well. However, we acknowledge the truth of Scripture which tells us that the Church teaches the Word of God (Eph 3:10) and that our Priests teach the Word of God (Heb 13:7) and that the Word of God is passed down by word in Tradition (1 Thess 2:13). And we also see that the Word of God teaches against Sola Scriptura.

After all the scale of preference in a democratic society is always an alternative forgone.

The Kingdom of God is not a democratic society. It is a Kingdom, ruled by Christ through His Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria June 27, 2012 at 10:15 PM

Hi IgnatiusBenedict,

Go De Maria! Go De Maria! You are a gifted defender of our Faith. I’m sure Ray is proud to have you battle it out on his website as you do it with charity and truth.

Peace

Thanks IB, and the peace of Christ to you as well,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Joel D'Souza June 27, 2012 at 11:49 PM

IgnatiusBenedict:

Go De Maria! Go De Maria!

Another of those religious bigot chants who make noise like empty vessels gathering no moss.

De Maria June 28, 2012 at 11:19 AM

Hi Joel,

Another of those religious bigot chants who make noise like empty vessels gathering no moss.

Do you hate everyone who agrees with me and disagrees with you?

Joel D'souza June 28, 2012 at 12:44 PM

De Maria:
The Bible is a book which contains the Word of God, Joel. Jesus is the Word of God. He is not contained in a book (John 21:25).

Then it is a hoax that Jesus is present in the Eucharist eh?

De Maria June 28, 2012 at 10:17 PM

Hi Joel,

I said:
The Bible is a book which contains the Word of God, Joel. Jesus is the Word of God. He is not contained in a book (John 21:25).

You replied:
Then it is a hoax that Jesus is present in the Eucharist eh?

Jesus didn’t say, “the book that I give is my flesh for the life of the world.” He said, “the bread that I give is my flesh for the life of the world.” John 6:51

Jesus didn’t say, “this book is my body” Jesus said, “this bread is my body” Matt 26:26

Sincerely,

De Maria

Loren T. July 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM

Hi brother Joel in Christ,
I have really enjoyed yours and De Maria’s posts until I read this one sentence of yours:

“Then it is a hoax that Jesus is present in the Eucharist eh?”

I actually felt like it was a blow to my face and it hurts because I truly believe He is present there. I understand that Protestants have different views in regards to the Eucharist, but if you believe that God is all powerful, all knowing, and all-loving, why is it so hard for you to believe He is truly present there? He created the universe including you and me didn’t he? Then why is it impossible for Him to be present in the Eucharist? And there are miracles that had happened to prove that He is truly present there and have been documented by the Catholic church because even some catholic priests doubted His presence in the Eucharist. If you have been given the gift of faith to believe in His words and have devoutly and rigorously defended them, then why do you doubt when He says this is my body and blood in the bread and wine? Brother Joel, He loves us to the point that He wants to remain with us until the end of time; that is why He established the Eucharist Sacrament. In the spirit of Love and in the Holy Name of Jesus, I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit will lift up that veil of doubt so you can see the Truth and will use that gift to defend the true Church which has lasted over 2000 years. God loves and blesses you always. (You too De Maria).

db February 14, 2013 at 4:16 AM

I have a problem. I am a protestant, thats not the problem thats the position.

My problem is that every website I go to about anything I am passionate about is run by a Catholic.
My problem is that I find I agree with the Catholic response more than the protestant response.
My problem is that my favorite Bible is the RSV Catholic edition, it is the Bible that God gave me specifically twenty years ago, but I didnt know why.
My problem is I watch protestant tv but I switch to EWTN instead.
My problem is that I disagree with Joel and agree with De Maria.
My problem is that protestants reject authority but I don’t.
My problem is that the Statement of Faith at my church now states that I must believe in a future millenium, but I believe the millenium is right here right now working through the Church.
My problem became more obvious when I was sad that the Pope resigned, because he was such a wonderful spiritual leader in this age of serious darkness. Welcome to the Dark Ages.

I have one question and this is a very genuine question. What must I do to be a Catholic?

Tom April 30, 2014 at 8:47 AM

The experience of the thief on the cross does not disprove Purgatory. First of all, Catholicism does not teach that *everyone* must go through Purgatory, only that there is a Purgatory for those who need that purification. Secondly, the thief was already suffering on that cross and such suffering can be part of (or the whole extent of) the purging process. Thirdly, Christ was right there with the thief, “on the front porch of Heaven” if you will. Now that Christ has ascended, the “front porch” or “the lobby” went with Him. Instead of suffering on a cross, the “fire” of Purgatory does the purging. In order to enter Heaven, every hint of attachment to things other than Christ must be eliminated (perfection). The thief’s cross may very well have perfected him since Christ told us to suffer our own crosses and lay aside all else to follow Him. That’s why Christ could be there with the thief on the “front porch” of Heaven and say, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” Rather than disproving Purgatory, the thief on the cross is a great example of Purgatory. Many of us will need to spend time “hanging on the thief’s cross” so to speak, before we are perfect enough to enter Heaven.

Lidia April 30, 2014 at 11:23 AM

DB,
“I have one question and this is a very genuine question. What must I do to be a Catholic?”

My dear, you already are!!

Next step, contact your local Catholic Church and ask them the same question. They will guide you the rest of the journey. Welcome home!

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